Garmin 4.00 60cs firmware works on Mac OS X 10.4.1

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Garmin 4.00 60cs firmware works on Mac OS X 10.4.1

Scott Renfro
After upgrading my 60cs to the brand new version 4.00 60cs
firmware (which claims "Improved USB support"), a clean build
of gpsbabel on Mac OS X 10.4.1 talked just fine to the 60cs
over USB.

That's the first time I'm aware of that working.  I've had
some gross kludges in my personal tree that let this work
previously, but with the new firmware I was able to back those
out and have the Garmin, the Mac, and gpsbabel talk just fine.

cheers,
--Scott

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Re: Garmin 4.00 60cs firmware works on Mac OS X 10.4.1

Robert Lipe
Scott Renfro wrote:
> After upgrading my 60cs to the brand new version 4.00 60cs
> firmware (which claims "Improved USB support"), a clean build
> of gpsbabel on Mac OS X 10.4.1 talked just fine to the 60cs
> over USB.

Jump back!  That's great news for users of that combination.

Thanx for the update.


RJL


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Re: Garmin 4.00 60cs firmware works on Mac OS X 10.4.1

stantstk@pacbell.net
That's fantastic -- finally, a jump in the right direction!! At the moment, I'm still running 10.3.9 and probably won't do 10.4 for a few more months, so I won't be able to check it out under those conditions. As soon as I have some time, though, I'll try it under Panther (unless someone already has) and see if it works there, just in case.

That still doesn't solve the Mapsource -> 60CS map transfers under USB, though, does it?

Stan Glaser

Robert Lipe wrote:
Scott Renfro wrote:
  
After upgrading my 60cs to the brand new version 4.00 60cs
firmware (which claims "Improved USB support"), a clean build
of gpsbabel on Mac OS X 10.4.1 talked just fine to the 60cs
over USB.
    

Jump back!  That's great news for users of that combination.

Thanx for the update.


RJL


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Re: Garmin 4.00 60cs firmware works on Mac OS X 10.4.1

Scott Renfro
On Tue, Jun 21, 2005 at 10:44:52AM -0700, Stan Glaser wrote:
>
> That's fantastic -- finally, a jump in the right direction!!
> At the moment, I'm still running 10.3.9 and probably won't do
> 10.4 for a few more months

I would expect that this would also work fine in 10.3.9, but
haven't tested.  There's an outside chance that it might also
work with older versions of 10.3 that don't include the Garmin
USB workaround, but I wouldn't hold my breath.

> That still doesn't solve the Mapsource -> 60CS map transfers
> under USB, though, does it?

I had high hopes for exactly that.  I did a full round of
driver and software updates last night trying to find a
combination of VPC and Garmin USB drivers that allow MapSource
running inside VPC to talk to the 60cs directly over USB.  It
seems really close, but something still interferes[1].  In the
end, I couldn't get Mapsource to find the 60cs via USB (it
works fine with a Keyspan usb serial adapter routing the serial
driver into VPC as a serial port).

--Scott

[1] I ended up with Mapsource 6.5, VPC 7.0.1, and the latest
    Garmin Windows USB drivers from the website.  I told VPC to
    route the unknown USB device to XP.  When XP boots (or when
    you plug in the 60cs) the USB icon on the 60cs appears and
    you get the connected "beep".  When you go into the
    hardware preference pane and find the Garmin driver, it
    shows a device attached and working properly. But when you
    ask Mapsource to find the 60cs, it fails to do so.

    It would be interesting to try the windows build of
    gpsbabel and see if that can talk over USB to the 60cs
    when running under VPC.  I didn't get a chance to try that
    last night.

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Re: Garmin 4.00 60cs firmware works on Mac OS X 10.4.1

Robert Lipe
> > That's fantastic -- finally, a jump in the right direction!!
> > At the moment, I'm still running 10.3.9 and probably won't do
> > 10.4 for a few more months
>
> I would expect that this would also work fine in 10.3.9, but
> haven't tested.  There's an outside chance that it might also
> work with older versions of 10.3 that don't include the Garmin

I'm with Scott on this suspicion; it's certainly worth a shot.  I didn't
have the impression that the USB stacks in 10.4.x and 10.3.[89] were
radically different in this regard.

> driver and software updates last night trying to find a
> combination of VPC and Garmin USB drivers that allow MapSource

I'm sure the Garmin yahoogroups and/or groundspeak groups would like to
hear this.

>     It would be interesting to try the windows build of
>     gpsbabel and see if that can talk over USB to the 60cs
>     when running under VPC.  I didn't get a chance to try that

From what you've described, I'd be suprised if it worked.

Since you've been in the code, you know that GPSBabel on
Linux/FreeBSD/OSX talks to libusb to talk to the hardware as close to
directly as practical and does all the enumeration and protocol stuff
itself.

On Windows, GPSBabel talks to the Garmin driver - for better and worse -
and lets it handle the hardware directly.  From what you're describing,
the Windows driver isn't playing nicely on VPC.  Of course, those are
hard things to debug as "black boxes" so it's probably worth a try, too.

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Re: Garmin 4.00 60cs firmware works on Mac OS X 10.4.1

Scott Renfro
On Tue, Jun 21, 2005 at 04:35:51PM -0500, Robert Lipe wrote:
>
> I'm sure the Garmin yahoogroups and/or groundspeak groups
> would like to hear this.

Oh, yeah.  Thanks for the reminder.  I'll have to check out
the Garmin yahoogroup.  I just posted a summary here:

  http://forums.groundspeak.com/GC/index.php?showtopic=101349&st=0&#entry1551768

--Scott

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Re: Garmin 4.00 60cs firmware works on Mac OS X 10.4.1

stantstk@pacbell.net
In reply to this post by Robert Lipe
Uploaded the new Garmin 4.0 firmware into my 60CS (Keyspan USB->serial adapter, Mac OS 9.2.2, VPC 4.0.5), then switched back into OS X 10.3.9.

Was able to upload a .gpx file using MacGPSBabel 1.2.5 into the Garmin USING ONLY THE USB CABLE!!! Yeah!! Finally, that works.

Then ran VPC 7.0.1, copied the same .gpx file into GSAK, and tried to upload that into the 60CS through GSAK -- that still doesn't work.

So, at least I can throw a PQ into GSAK, massage it the way I want, output that into a .gpx file, and load that into the 60CS via MacGPSBabel via the USB cable and NEVER go back into OS 9 (which is where EVERYTHING was/is working just fine!).

And, as expected, MapSource won't work either in VPC 7.0.1 under OS X. Yeah, it thinks the 60CS is there on the USB line, but it ain't talkin'!! So, back into OS 9.2.2 for map loads when needed.

That's one small step for Garmin, one giant leap for me.

Stan Glaser

Robert Lipe wrote:
That's fantastic -- finally, a jump in the right direction!!
At the moment, I'm still running 10.3.9 and probably won't do
10.4 for a few more months
      
I would expect that this would also work fine in 10.3.9, but
haven't tested.  There's an outside chance that it might also
work with older versions of 10.3 that don't include the Garmin
    

I'm with Scott on this suspicion; it's certainly worth a shot.  I didn't
have the impression that the USB stacks in 10.4.x and 10.3.[89] were
radically different in this regard.

  
driver and software updates last night trying to find a
combination of VPC and Garmin USB drivers that allow MapSource
    

I'm sure the Garmin yahoogroups and/or groundspeak groups would like to
hear this.

  
    It would be interesting to try the windows build of
    gpsbabel and see if that can talk over USB to the 60cs
    when running under VPC.  I didn't get a chance to try that
    

>From what you've described, I'd be suprised if it worked.

Since you've been in the code, you know that GPSBabel on
Linux/FreeBSD/OSX talks to libusb to talk to the hardware as close to
directly as practical and does all the enumeration and protocol stuff
itself.

On Windows, GPSBabel talks to the Garmin driver - for better and worse -
and lets it handle the hardware directly.  From what you're describing,
the Windows driver isn't playing nicely on VPC.  Of course, those are
hard things to debug as "black boxes" so it's probably worth a try, too.

  
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Re: Garmin 4.00 60cs firmware works on Mac OS X 10.4.1

Scott Renfro
On Tue, Jun 21, 2005 at 11:15:53PM -0700, Stan Glaser wrote:
>
> And, as expected, MapSource won't work either in VPC 7.0.1
> under OS X. Yeah, it thinks the 60CS is there on the USB
> line, but it ain't talkin'!! So, back into OS 9.2.2 for map
> loads when needed.

Mapsource works for me in VPC 7.0.1 under OS X 10.4.1 as long
as I use the Keyspan usb->serial adapter.  It's just the USB
connection that doesn't work.  So OS 9.2.2 shouldn't be needed
to load maps. Or is there something else that the OS
9.2.2/VPC4 configuration is giving you?

cheers,
--Scott

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Re: Garmin 4.00 60cs firmware works on Mac OS X 10.4.1

stantstk@pacbell.net
In reply to this post by Scott Renfro
Hi, Scott --

No, nothing other than a TOTAL USB CONNECTION ONLY!! Thru JUST the USB Cable into the USB port on the back of the 60CS -- at USB speeds. THAT'S what I've been complaining about. Sure, I can hook it all up using my Keyspan USB -> serial port adapter under OS X, but why should I transfer at a S-L-O-W serial speed when I can do it at higher USB speeds -- the port is there -- it SHOULD work. I'm tired of Garmin saying, "We don't support the Mac platform." Now that the 4.0 firmware "seems" to be working (at least using MacGPS Babel), it becomes a little more obvious that it's VPC that might be the problem (as Robert Lipe has mentioned)...

Anyway -- have you tried to load a full 56MB map database using the Keyspan adapter? Anytime I transfer with that, I need to dumb down the transfer rate or I invariably get a handshake error somewhere down the line. It's taken almost 3 hours (+) to upload a set of maps using the serial connection. It's quite a bit faster using USB (under OS 9.2.2). I'd just like to do the same under OS X.

Stan

Scott Renfro wrote:
On Tue, Jun 21, 2005 at 10:44:52AM -0700, Stan Glaser wrote:
  
That's fantastic -- finally, a jump in the right direction!!
At the moment, I'm still running 10.3.9 and probably won't do
10.4 for a few more months
    

I would expect that this would also work fine in 10.3.9, but
haven't tested.  There's an outside chance that it might also
work with older versions of 10.3 that don't include the Garmin
USB workaround, but I wouldn't hold my breath.

  
That still doesn't solve the Mapsource -> 60CS map transfers
under USB, though, does it?
    

I had high hopes for exactly that.  I did a full round of
driver and software updates last night trying to find a
combination of VPC and Garmin USB drivers that allow MapSource
running inside VPC to talk to the 60cs directly over USB.  It
seems really close, but something still interferes[1].  In the
end, I couldn't get Mapsource to find the 60cs via USB (it
works fine with a Keyspan usb serial adapter routing the serial
driver into VPC as a serial port).

--Scott

[1] I ended up with Mapsource 6.5, VPC 7.0.1, and the latest
    Garmin Windows USB drivers from the website.  I told VPC to
    route the unknown USB device to XP.  When XP boots (or when
    you plug in the 60cs) the USB icon on the 60cs appears and
    you get the connected "beep".  When you go into the
    hardware preference pane and find the Garmin driver, it
    shows a device attached and working properly. But when you
    ask Mapsource to find the 60cs, it fails to do so.

    It would be interesting to try the windows build of
    gpsbabel and see if that can talk over USB to the 60cs
    when running under VPC.  I didn't get a chance to try that
    last night.

  
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Re: Garmin 4.00 60cs firmware works on Mac OS X 10.4.1

Scott Renfro
In reply to this post by Robert Lipe
On Tue, Jun 21, 2005 at 04:35:51PM -0500, Robert Lipe wrote:
>
> >     It would be interesting to try the windows build of
> >     gpsbabel and see if that can talk over USB to the 60cs
> >     when running under VPC.  I didn't get a chance to try that
>
> >From what you've described, I'd be suprised if it worked.

Not that we expected win32 gpsbabel to work under VPC, but I had
to try.  Here's the failed output from the first run:

  C:\gpsbabel-1.2.5>gpsbabel -D9 -t -i garmin -f usb: -o gpx -F t.gpx
  GPSBabel Version: 1.2.5
  Windows GUID for interface 0 is
          \\?\usb#vid_091e&pid_0003#4&1ce806f7&0&1#{2c9c45c2-8e7d-4c08-a12d-816bbae722c0}
  TX [0]:(UNKNOWN )
  Error sending 12 bytes.   Successfully sent 0

The first time you run this with the 60cs connected (the usb
connection appears to be established upon plugging in), the
failure is immediate and this output appears without delay.

If you then rerun gpsbabel without first unplugging the 60cs,
then you see the write attempt block and only after you unplug
do you see the TX and Error lines appear.

--Scott

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Re: Garmin 4.00 60cs firmware works on Mac OS X 10.4.1

Scott Renfro
In reply to this post by stantstk@pacbell.net
On Tue, Jun 21, 2005 at 11:52:04PM -0700, Stan Glaser wrote:
>
> It's quite a bit faster using USB (under OS 9.2.2). I'd just
> like to do the same under OS X.

Ah, got it.  I had missed that pure USB (no USB->serial adapter)
was working for you under OS 9 and VPC 4.

--Scott

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Re: Garmin 4.00 60cs firmware works on Mac OS X 10.4.1

Robert Lipe-2
This is good stuff.  I'm pleased that 10.3.9 works.  This means the
changes the Apple USB guys made on behalf of our analysis were
effective and there was "merely" some other problem that prevented
success.

If Mapsource won't work talking through that driver, I wouldn't expect
 GPSBabel to work.   (I frequently play this card with "real" Windows
users, to send them Garmin's support to play the "reinstall drivers in
random combinations until it works" hokey pokey too. :-)

For your GSAK needs, Stan, I suspect you'll find the the convenience
of a serial connection for waypoint xfer to be easier than bouncing
between GSAK/VPC/MacGPSBabel.   While I get your point about map
transfer speed, moving even 1000 waypoints with full comments really
doesn't take that long over a serial connection.   I took the same
stance with my Meridian  - I used USB to upload maps but the time
inconvenience of serial connection for waypoint xfer just wasn't that
bad.


So in wrap-up, I give a gold star to Apple.   Once I had a Mac in hand
(and annotated protocol analyzer dumps) and joined their (free)
developer program, I was able to work directly with the key developers
of the USB stack to identify the fix, test prerelease versions of it,
and they got it into an OS update.  This took only a couple of days.  
The fix missed cutoff for one OS update but made it into the next that
was only a couple of weeks later.

I give a giant raspberry to Garmin's handling of this.   I originally
sent them a document describing something like a dozen discrepancies
between their USB doc and what I was observing on the analyzer from
Mapsource and asking for clarifications.   They never responded but
within two weeks or so, they revved the USB doc to REMOVE most of the
unclear information.  (As the doc stands now, enough details are
omitted that you basically _have_ to have intimate knowledge of how
USB works and be prepared for some reverse engineering.)     When I
was chasing the Mac problem, I submitted the annotated dumps from the
protocol analyzer, citing the specific USB sections that were
violated, and asked if there was something we could do to the device
to ensure more conforming behaviour.

Never once did I receive a response from them.

Garmin gets a lot of things right, but they sure hosed me on this.


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